Originally by: Sumelar

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Damage type on hybrids is irrelevant, both races that use them have the ability to use specific damage types with drones or missiles.

Plus Kin/Therm is the best combo, since it works decently well on everything already.

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Originally by: Meeko Atari

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Would removing the 249k lock range be too much of an issue?

I do not see it helping anything but BS class weapons though

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Originally by: Baneken

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Actually I like the idea of lowering sig radius from hybrid this would allow greater damage potential for hybrids against smaller targets while still keeping the current balance with Bs vs Bs engagements.
So in conclusion lower the sig radius of large and medium hybrids and give over all tracking boost for hybrids,
after that evaluate the need for an actual dps boost.

Other thing to look at are the hybrid ammo in general because about everyone uses only one kind of ammo and that's antimatter, something should be done to make other ammo worth using.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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My Apoc and Zealot are having a very difficult time believing that optimal range bonuses are a waste. Also, optimal range bonuses are a damage bonus for two reasons:
- You can hit where nobody else can (lets examine sniper HAC damage at 150km...)
- You can use better ammo (nobody restricts you to using ****ty T2 ammo at 100km, like everyone else is using)

I mean, are hybrids the odd man out ATM? Yeah, to a point - but mostly in terms of blasters. Maybe the right answer is to increase the Caldari optimal range bonus? An eagle chunking Antimatter out to 75-80km would be fearsome indeed. But I guess the really interesting thing would be what happened to blasters in such a situation. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: 1600 RT

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im the only one that notice it always boils down to a comparison between X weapon and OP laser?

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Originally by: Jacob Stov

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Lasers are that good now for 1 1/2 year. One would think that is enough time for amarr cruiser + BB 5 and large pulse/beamspec 4.
Now stop moaning and start them goddamn skills already.

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Originally by: Ap0ll0n

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Originally by: Arrador

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As far as Hybrid platforms go, the caldari gun boats, Moa, Ferox, Rokh are in need of a PG increase. the Rokh can't even fit a rack full of 425mms without a fitting mod. The ferox with a rack full of 250mms has 69pg left. You can't even fit a rack of 200mms + MWD on a Moa. The range bonus on our ships isn't enough to keep us alive, and we .

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Have you tried fitting 8 T2 Tachyons to a Apoc? MWD + 8 guns = 1 T2 and 1 T1 reactor control.

Rokh does not need a PG increase.

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Originally by: Tagami Wasp

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Let me see, you don't rig those snipApocs, right?
Nor do you get 425 dps and 2841 alpha @ 188+32?

If they give the same dps to the Rokh, I'll concede that it doesn't need a buff.

However if you prefer, we can be destructive instead of constructive.Maybe we should be asking that they NERF Amarr?

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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I dont understand why Caldari and Gallente share a weapon system when Mimmatar and Amarr get their own... why arent Blasters and Railguns seperate like Lasers and Artillery are?

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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gall primary weapon blaster, secondary drone, third rail
cal primary misisles, secondary rails, third drones

rails suck because its no ones primary weapon.

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Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr

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The best way to boost railguns as a gallente pilot for fleet is to train caldari battleship 5.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr

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The best way to boost railguns as a gallente pilot for fleet is to train caldari battleship 5.

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Dont be stupid that wont help you with snipe hac/bc gangs also the rokh isnt better than the megathorn at all.
learn amarr or minmatar bs to lvl5 + their weapons that would help

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Amarr BS 5 for fleet or gtfo. Alpha is nice, but it's most useful in small gangs and for breaking RR. For fleets...... not so much.

-Liang

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Oh and dont forget that Tracking Enhancers are Tracking Computers.
Why TC needs activations/cap/more cpu if they give less?

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My TCs give me more than TEs, maybe I'm doing it wrong.

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Originally by: Dabljuh

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/01/2010 10:00:31
lol hybrid sucks because i should use drones+missiles with them? So where should i put those missile launchers?
No it doesnt make any sense.

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Not necessarily you. You're in a fleet, a caldari fleet or a gallente fleet. Someone in that fleet is supposed to have drones or missiles.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Still we dont need to come up with solutions as ccp will do that , we only need to point out the flaws ,what many ppl already done here, it is CCPs turn to do something now.

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Aye, lets just hope they come up with something as cool as they did for projectiles. I think it turned out quite nicely - I as afraid they'd overbuff it something fierce for a while there.

-Liang

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Originally by: silvertree umholtz

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Rails are fine the way they are, no need to change anything

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And we are trying to say that the AT YOUR OPTIMAL DOES NOT COVER THE WHOLE DAMM GAME!!! And when you fight faster ships you will NOT fight at your optimal therefore your statement of having better tracking AT YOUR OPTIMAL is MEANINGLESS!

You are trying to discuss relevance of FIRING AT YOUR OPTIMAL against a ship faster than you, a situation that DOES NOT EXIST in eve for more than few seconds, unless 1 of the players is really stupid.


WE understand VERY WELL the concept of relative tracking!! You are the one that doe snot understand concept of TACTICS!!!!

Get that in your mind!! You are approaching the game on a SINGLE scenario that doe snot represent the whole game and is not even the majority of situations!!

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Originally by: Tagami Wasp

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Just finished a roam in my Eagle. Rails do need more dps, not range. I don't know what Liang is taking lately, but asking for more range in rails is totally and irredeemably wrong.

Originally by: Tagami Wasp

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Rails lack in dps within their engagement envelope (the extend of which is sufficient)
Blasters lack in the extend of their engagement envelope (their dps is sufficient)

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Originally by: Ophelia Ursus

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At the moment, an Eagle with 3 damage mods and 250mm rails tops out at 321 DPS with CN AM. If its pilot wants a 100 km optimal, he has to switch to CN Lead (216 DPS) or Thorium (243 DPS), depending on fit; with a bigger range bonus, he'd be able to use CN Uranium or Plutonium, or maybe even antimatter at that range instead, getting a significant damage increase. So a range bonus is a damage bonus in as much as it lets you use high damage ammo at longer ranges. It makes sense for the Caldari gunboats because it increases their ability to apply damage at range without making them good damage dealers at medium-close ranges - the Eagle's maximum DPS remains capped at 321, but its DPS at 100 km rises to 270+.

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Originally by: M Blanc

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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The problem is that eagle wont be able to fit those 3 dmg mods.

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Sure it can - from memory, this all fits and hits 100km with thorium

3x T2 magstab
RCU II

y-t8 mwd
LSE II
3x TC II with optimal script

5x250mm railgun II

ACR I
Lock range rig I (ionic field projector?)

It is, however, beyond stupid that you need an RCU and an ACR to fit LSE/MWD/top tier guns when the Zealot can fit MWD/LSE/heavy beams with just a PDS.

edit: not to say that fit is without its problems - it's slow as f*** and has horrible scan res which you can't fix because derp derp derp, no sebo. And you can't swap the lock range rig for a locus, which would free up a mid to fit a sebo because again, lol Caldari grid.

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Originally by: raukosen

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Originally by: Tagami Wasp

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I will furthermore ask that if you want to refute my statements, plz provide link to kills made with a sniperHAC, otherwise your opinion is just speculation, while mine is backed by data, acquired on the field. If you have never flown one it's OK, you can always pay me 250 mil to take you along in one of our provi-roams.

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Vagabonds aren't sniperHACs

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Originally by: Sig Sour

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Rails do need some love. Somehow.

If you take the Megathron sitting on a pos for example, it will be doing around 600 dps. If you were to straight up give rails more DPS, you would unbalance blasters.

Rails are kinda the caldari family as far as hybrids go. If you kinda think of them as a caldari weapon which has very reliable damage (visit missiles) you could give rails an outstanding tracking bonus on top of a minor DPS increase?

The Rokh is actually designed for another game, not Eve. The game the Rokh was designed for allowed people to target beyond 249k, and allowed warping to a destination at distances greater than 100km. Although the Rokh looks really cool in Eve, it is kinda an outsider that was allowed in.

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Originally by: Ogogov

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What's bugging me about the direction this discussion has taken is the assumption that Caldari platforms are primarily rail platforms.

They aren't - Caldari are shield tanking missile and EWAR platforms. The railboats are secondary to their major roles. This is the reason for the weird PG/CPU distribution - they have more CPU because that's their racial tendency.

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Originally by: Ogogov

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And yet you're completely ignoring all the Gallente ships that DO use hybrids as their primary systems. THAT is what I was getting at. But I suppose it's too much to hope for that you idiots would look beyond your own narrow focus on the game to see how it would affect everything.

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Originally by: Ogogov

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Because of course drones don't suffer from numerous problems inherent not only in the game code but also miserly distribution of bonus modules, expense, the fact they're destroyable etc. etc. etc.

It does seem that I've hit a raw nerve though - more tears, please :)

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Originally by: Dabljuh

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Edited by: Dabljuh on 22/01/2010 11:54:54
A 25% dps increase on rails makes them do the same dps as beam lasers, while out-ranging them. Still less tracking tho.

Furthermore, do not forget there is a clear correlation between range and damage between two turrets of the same class (hybrid/projectiles/energy weapons)

50% less range equals 15% more dps. Such is the case with beam lasers vs pulse lasers.

50%*50% = 1/4 the range equals 1.15¦ = ~32% more dps. such is the case with artillery vs autocannons.

50%*50%*50% = 1/8 the range equals 1.15¦ = 52% more dps. such is the case with rails vs blasters.

if you change the range or dps of one half of a turret type, you'll have to change the range or dps of the other as well.

Talking flavor (= not balance) and increasing alpha for rails at the same time (= balance) How about the different ammo types no longer do different amounts of damage, but instead shoot more quickly. Antimatter could have a -40% delay bonus to nearly double the DPS, whereas iron could have a 60% delay penalty to reduce the dps. The end result? Antimatter uses the most cap per second, iron the least. (a cap penalty on iron could be imaginable) Alpha would be the same through all ammo types. Meaning, you could get a reasonable alpha with iron. Not much changes for blasters who wouldn't be caught dead with iron. Adjust the base duration / multipliers accordingly and there you go.

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Originally by: McCreary075

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I think that small adjustments to hybrids will make them more competitive. A bit more range on rails (10%?) is probably enough, maybe a bit more to allow you to switch to a higher damage ammo type.

Blasters will be more competitive with a tracking boost of say 5%, with a 5% damage increase. The problem with blasters is getting your theoretical DPS onto your target in a meaningful quantity to offset all the damage you took closing range. Tracking will help you apply close-in as you try to stay under their guns, and the extra damage gives you a boost at all ranges. You'll have less damage differential to make up from closing, and then you will be able to apply more DPS as you hold a 'tight' orbit.

Though, you can probably accomplish similar goals by adjusting the ammo, like they did for projectiles. I would not mirror the projectile type bonuses.

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Originally by: Ophelia Ursus

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I don't think a 10% grid increase is really sufficient; 15 - 20% would be more reasonable. Consider the generic core of a sniper HAC fitting: Y-T8 MWD, LSE II, and a full rack of highest tier racial long range guns. With a max-skilled character, fitting this lot on each of the racial sniping HACs consumes:

Zealot: 1511.25 of 1475 grid available (2.5% shortfall)
Muninn: 1511.25 of 1450 grid available (4.2% shortfall)
Deimos: 1337.5 of 1237.5 grid available (7.9% shortfall)
Eagle: 1337.5 of 1093.75 grid available (22.3% shortfall)

The Eagle thus requires at least two fitting mods (RCU II: +15% grid; ACR: +10% grid) to remedy its deficiency, whereas all the others require only one. A 10% PG boost would still leave the Eagle with a 11% grid deficit, leaving it considerably worse off than the others and being the only HAC that requires an RCU II to fit.

Also, while I certainly wouldn't object to a blanket 10% grid boost for the other Caldari turret boats, I'm not sure they all need it. The Harpy and Rokh work OK as is; it's the Moa, Eagle, and Ferox (and maybe Vulture?) that have real problems when fitting rails.

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